Should Custom Maps be Community Assets?

Написано Aetius, 01.11.2015 at 13:02

Let's just say the ToS isn't as old or as inviolable as it seems. Mapmakers have been far more interested in what goes on in that regard than you all just looking it up for the first time, and we have some pretty interesting responses to that although I won't reveal our hand in this stupid thread.

Now I like Amok and Ivan. I think they created a great game and have been nice to their content creators, which I appreciate. They know its mutually beneficial. As of right now, they are working on HTML5 map making tools, and don't forget they gave us ban lists. Most of this anti-map makers comes from the Mods. They, and those that support them, have this idea that map makers are arrogant dicks who create maps just so they can take them down or add people to banlists and laugh. "These ebil map makers must be punished! We must seize their content for the glorious soviet states of atwaria" - t. Mods. Hey guess what, you players can just stop playing maps made by those ebil map makers and they no longer have power over you. However, that is not the case for bad mods, one mod recently (who I will not name) has had a huge number of people vote for his removal but he won't get removed. So really consider who is the one causing the problems. The people creating content and banning trolls, or the people fighting against those people? In conclusion, lets stop trying to make unnecessary changes for the worse, atwar functions right now quite well.

I didnt want to revive this discussion but i wanted to address this post and this unhealthy and incorrect attitude about mods. There is absolutely not an "anti-mapmaker" sentiment amongst the mods. Our job ultimately is to protect the players and the community, as well as make it a fun place to be. In particular we actually seek to protect the mapmakers, as they are a valuable part of the community.

Look at it from our perspective. Lets pretend ivan and amok are not admins but mapmakers. Say for some reason in the morning ivan decides he hates this game and quits, deleting the default map. He would take a chunk of the playerbase with him essentially ruining aw. This is the level of influence/power a mapmaker potentially can have.

In the past you(the mapmakers) have used this influence to have a banlist implemented. This was fine as it was for a noble purpose. Sure some mods like pulse don't agree with it, but if this was the opinion of the entire modteam the banlist would not exist. I can see where pulse is coming from, as a mod, the majority of player requests/complaints i receive are regarding the banlist. However i personally am ok with this. it is usually straightforward as long as the mapmaker has followed the rules and provided proof.

However we also saw a second strike where a mapmaker and a handful of other demanded full control of the banlist and the ability to ban indescriminately based on personal reasons. This was not ok and led to the alteration in the ToS.

Написано Permamuted, 07.11.2015 at 07:27

Написано Aetius, 01.11.2015 at 13:02

Let's just say the ToS isn't as old or as inviolable as it seems. Mapmakers have been far more interested in what goes on in that regard than you all just looking it up for the first time, and we have some pretty interesting responses to that although I won't reveal our hand in this stupid thread.

Now I like Amok and Ivan. I think they created a great game and have been nice to their content creators, which I appreciate. They know its mutually beneficial. As of right now, they are working on HTML5 map making tools, and don't forget they gave us ban lists. Most of this anti-map makers comes from the Mods. They, and those that support them, have this idea that map makers are arrogant dicks who create maps just so they can take them down or add people to banlists and laugh. "These ebil map makers must be punished! We must seize their content for the glorious soviet states of atwaria" - t. Mods. Hey guess what, you players can just stop playing maps made by those ebil map makers and they no longer have power over you. However, that is not the case for bad mods, one mod recently (who I will not name) has had a huge number of people vote for his removal but he won't get removed. So really consider who is the one causing the problems. The people creating content and banning trolls, or the people fighting against those people? In conclusion, lets stop trying to make unnecessary changes for the worse, atwar functions right now quite well.

I didnt want to revive this discussion but i wanted to address this post and this unhealthy and incorrect attitude about mods. There is absolutely not an "anti-mapmaker" sentiment amongst the mods. Our job ultimately is to protect the players and the community, as well as make it a fun place to be. In particular we actually seek to protect the mapmakers, as they are a valuable part of the community.

Look at it from our perspective. Lets pretend ivan and amok are not admins but mapmakers. Say for some reason in the morning ivan decides he hates this game and quits, deleting the default map. He would take a chunk of the playerbase with him essentially ruining aw. This is the level of influence/power a mapmaker potentially can have.

In the past you(the mapmakers) have used this influence to have a banlist implemented. This was fine as it was for a noble purpose. Sure some mods like pulse don't agree with it, but if this was the opinion of the entire modteam the banlist would not exist. I can see where pulse is coming from, as a mod, the majority of player requests/complaints i receive are regarding the banlist. However i personally am ok with this. it is usually straightforward as long as the mapmaker has followed the rules and provided proof.

However we also saw a second strike where a mapmaker and a handful of other demanded full control of the banlist and the ability to ban indescriminately based on personal reasons. This was not ok and led to the alteration in the ToS.

Read the coversation I had with Ivan in the above discussion or find tunder3s signiture. We are exempt from the terms of service and the maps are our private property. I would let this topic finally simmer out before we start asking why there is a moderator ban appeal and maps that don't belong to them. Let this die. Simply we won this time.


Edit: your information is false the second map maker strike was about the secret tos change nothing with taking back full control over our maps that have nothing to do with mods. Ivan said they are our private property to do with as we please, you guys never even asked the admins to implement a ban appeal thread you just did it then started punishing map makers with it whether we where right or wrong. In this case you guys ment well and iv cone to the conclusion as of now ban appeal and screen shot system is neccassary till we can come up with a better alternitive.

Написано Helly, 07.11.2015 at 09:33

Read the coversation I had with Ivan in the above discussion or find tunder3s signiture. We are exempt from the terms of service and the maps are our private property. I woukd let this topic finally simmer out before we start asking why there is a moderator ban appeal and maps tgat don't belong to them. Let thus die. Simply we won this time.

I read it and this is not a matter of whether the map-makers or the mods win or lose, it's about whether the community wins or loses. This is the problem, you believe we are out to get you guys when we are not. No reasonable sane minded individual is going to argue against a mapmaker having the right to decide whether or not someone clones their map.

But once published, it should remain in the database. Tell me hellraiser, say aetius produces an excellent map, so good that it significantly boosts the size of the playerbase. Players are logging just to play this map. But then one day aetius decides he hates atwar and deletes it, ruining the game for a significant number of players and significantly damaging the community. Do you feel this is ok just because he made the map? How is this good for atwar?

Atwar is unique in that mapmakers do have the ability to completely delete/remove published content. All other games i have played which allow custom user created content have similar rules in place to the current ToS when players join the game. There is a good reason for this. Most of the arguments in this thread on your behalf are terrible. I see "motivation to make the maps" is mentioned a lot. I saw thefuhrer state he was making his maps for the community, but would be unmotivated to make any more if he didnt have the ability to delete them. I'm sorry but i don't see why this is connected with motivation. Unless he is not making them for the community but for fame/influence.

Maps made for atwar are useless outside of aw. What do you intend to do with them? I believe the only reason many of the mapmakers who posted in this thread only wish to retain the ability to delete published maps because this gives them power/influence.

But regardless, with the current crop of mapmakers who accepted the original ToS, this hopefully shouldnt become an issue. But i am just explaining why the mods sought this change.

Написано Permamuted, 07.11.2015 at 10:04

Написано Helly, 07.11.2015 at 09:33

Read the coversation I had with Ivan in the above discussion or find tunder3s signiture. We are exempt from the terms of service and the maps are our private property. I woukd let this topic finally simmer out before we start asking why there is a moderator ban appeal and maps tgat don't belong to them. Let thus die. Simply we won this time.

I read it and this is not a matter of whether the map-makers or the mods win or lose, it's about whether the community wins or loses. This is the problem, you believe we are out to get you guys when we are not. No reasonable sane minded individual is going to argue against a mapmaker having the right to decide whether or not someone clones their map.

But once published, it should remain in the database. Tell me hellraiser, say aetius produces an excellent map, so good that it significantly boosts the size of the playerbase. Players are logging just to play this map. But then one day aetius decides he hates atwar and deletes it, ruining the game for a significant number of players and significantly damaging the community. Do you feel this is ok just because he made the map? How is this good for atwar?

Atwar is unique in that mapmakers do have the ability to completely delete/remove published content. All other games i have played which allow custom user created content have similar rules in place to the current ToS when players join the game. There is a good reason for this. Most of the arguments in this thread on your behalf are terrible. I see "motivation to make the maps" is mentioned a lot. I saw thefuhrer state he was making his maps for the community, but would be unmotivated to make any more if he didnt have the ability to delete them. I'm sorry but i don't see why this is connected with motivation. Unless he is not making them for the community but for fame/influence.

Maps made for atwar are useless outside of aw. What do you intend to do with them? I believe the only reason many of the mapmakers who posted in this thread only wish to retain the ability to delete published maps because this gives them power/influence.

But regardless, with the current crop of mapmakers who accepted the original ToS, this hopefully shouldnt become an issue. But i am just explaining why the mods sought this change.

Greetings,
Here we go again, couldn't just let the bear sleep, ya gotta go and poke it with a stick. I would like to just address two parts of your lil' post here.
Nothing big but ..... my perspective as a premium player and fledgling map maker is first if you are looking out for the players and community then that means you are looking out for the map makers as well, correct? After all we are players who are part of this community and paying customers at that. We have paid for the right to make maps, and from the gitgo given control over the content we create because we paid. If players want to create content for the community, more power to them, but I DID NOT buy the right to make maps for the community, I did it for my own fun and enjoyment. Not for power, influence and particularly not for the appreciation of one other single player in the game. If that was the case then it should have been stated up front from the beginning, or map making should be free to all players. It's, I'm guessing, one of the key reasons any player buys premium, a selling point, I know I would not have spent my money on premium if it had said I was making content for other players and would be told what to do with it. I am not an employee of Atwar, I am a customer, that's what happens when you charge people for things, we become the customer, simple philosophy of economics. So how are you helping the customers? By arguing with them over a now moot point? Or trying to tell them how to play the game they paid for? Or are you protecting the customers rights and privileges that they have paid for in this game?

I don't understand the continuation of this debate, Ivan already said that map makers are able to remove their content if they see fit (ie it is in our control). We are also able to ban people from maps if you have a solid reason to (leavers, trolling etc). So what is it that is demanded now, to be able to ban just because we don't like someone?

Написано Warmonger Dak, 07.11.2015 at 16:56

Greetings,
Here we go again, couldn't just let the bear sleep, ya gotta go and poke it with a stick. I would like to just address two parts of your lil' post here.
Nothing big but ..... my perspective as a premium player and fledgling map maker is first if you are looking out for the players and community then that means you are looking out for the map makers as well, correct? After all we are players who are part of this community and paying customers at that. We have paid for the right to make maps, and from the gitgo given control over the content we create because we paid. If players want to create content for the community, more power to them, but I DID NOT buy the right to make maps for the community, I did it for my own fun and enjoyment. Not for power, influence and particularly not for the appreciation of one other single player in the game. If that was the case then it should have been stated up front from the beginning, or map making should be free to all players. It's, I'm guessing, one of the key reasons any player buys premium, a selling point, I know I would not have spent my money on premium if it had said I was making content for other players and would be told what to do with it. I am not an employee of Atwar, I am a customer, that's what happens when you charge people for things, we become the customer, simple philosophy of economics. So how are you helping the customers? By arguing with them over a now moot point? Or trying to tell them how to play the game they paid for? Or are you protecting the customers rights and privileges that they have paid for in this game?

i believe i stated my intention in both posts, it was to address the attitude that us mods are "anti mapmaker", well worth reviving this topic for because this won't just go away. It is an attitude that has existed for quite some time.

In regards the content of your post, if you are making maps for yourself and your own enjoyment then you have no need to publish it and share it with the community. Its entirely your property, you can print it, frame it and put it on your living room wall. I am not really sure why you made this point

Написано Permamuted, 08.11.2015 at 07:25

i believe i stated my intention in both posts, it was to address the attitude that us mods are "anti mapmaker", well worth reviving this topic for because this won't just go away. It is an attitude that has existed for quite some time.

Your post seems more like an attempt to save face, why? because you are justifying yourself to the community instead of justifying yourself to the map makers, then you even dare to make "ebil nazi map makers" accusations. If you really wanted to appeal to map makers it could have been done in private.

Написано Tundy, 08.11.2015 at 07:48

Написано Permamuted, 08.11.2015 at 07:25

i believe i stated my intention in both posts, it was to address the attitude that us mods are "anti mapmaker", well worth reviving this topic for because this won't just go away. It is an attitude that has existed for quite some time.

Your post seems more like an attempt to save face, why? because you are justifying yourself to the community instead of justifying yourself to the map makers, then you even dare to make "ebil nazi map makers" accusations. If you really wanted to appeal to map makers it could have been done in private.

I am explaining to you why we sought the changes we did. You're not putting yourself in our shoes. What is your solution if a mapmakers map gains huge popularity and he/she decides to leverage this against the community? Do you believe that is ok? Why do you need the ability to delete your maps once published? You're not addressing my points. I have no alterior motive or agenda. Please help me understand.

This conversation should be public because the accusations of mods being anti map-maker were made publicly. That and there are many mapmakers.

Edit: I am going to leave this discussion end since you requested it. I do hope this doesn't become an issue again. History has shown that it will. I believe it will. Hope you guys prove me wrong. These posts at least will act as a point of reference the next time the moderation team is accused of being anti map-maker.

Locked on request of creator.